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    4/10/2006
    You Down with OPP?
    Now this is sort of a funny topic for me since I can think of about three books I have read and liked that have infidelity in them. But I like talking about sex... so lets have at it shall we?

    first we must do the tara:
    [bought to us by Merriam-Webster Online], the number 7 and the letter F

    Main Entry: infidelity
    Function: noun
    Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
    1 : lack of belief in a religion
    2 a : unfaithfulness to a moral obligation : DISLOYALTY b : marital unfaithfulness or an instance of it

    hmmmm speaks only to marital unfaithfulness

    how about:
    Main Entry: unfaithful
    Function: adjective
    : not faithful: a : not adhering to vows, allegiance, or duty : DISLOYAL b : not faithful to marriage vows c : INACCURATE, UNTRUSTWORTHY

    again marriage vows

    sooooo lets try:

    Main Entry: cheat
    Function: verb
    intransitive senses
    1 a : to practice fraud or trickery b : to violate rules dishonestly (as at cards or on an examination)
    2 : to be sexually unfaithful -- usually used with on

    That works, sort of... but sexually unfaithful to...? Personally I define it as sexually unfaithful to a committed relationship.

    How do you think of it?

    [We aren't even gonna go into open marriages and such... that would confuse the point here so lets say two people committed... we can get into Big Love some other time]

    The ever wonderful karens linked to a rant by anne "What's with all the Cheating heroes"

    Go check it out if you haven't. It talks about all the cheating heroes in books today, which sort of surprised me. I am not sure if I just avoid them because I don't like them, so I haven't noticed. Are there that many cheating heroes in romanceland today? examples....

    The really surprising thing was one comment said
    I can only guess that it's because it's new ground
    I would have assumed it was more old school than new. When I think of cheating heroes I think of Susan Johnson, The Marriage Bed and The Duchess Next Husband. Then I go blank.

    Do you have any keepers that are older romance with a theme of infidelity?

    How about newer ones? IS it a growing trend? And if so why? Is it that love concurs all thing? Or do you see the word infidelity, throw the book and move on?

    And am I the only one who uses the hero and heroine having sex as the mark of when OOP becomes a no no? In the perfect world, I think, the hero and the heroine would never evah fuck another. But real life as well as romance land are rarely perfect, so if one of the characters are knocking boots before they put their boots under the bed of their one true love, I can read the book.

    Will I like the book?

    Depends on the writer....

    Anne goes on to talk about Lover Eternal. As she hasn't read the book herself, she sites jaynier's review. You should check it out, if for no other reason than to see her blog template. jayniersez:
    I don't care what your reasons are asshole. The hero doesn't cheat on the heroine. It was freaken horrible. I wanted her to just leave him right then. I nearly threw the book against the wall.

    Now I haven't posted my review yet for this because I wasn't sure if it would go here or AAR but the whole rhage passing around his cock thing bothered me. A lot, a lot, a lot... but for different reasons than jaynier or anne.

    Rhage quote:
    "I hate the anonymity of it. I hate the way my chest aches afterward. I hate the smells on my body and in my hair when I go home. But most of all, I hate the fact that I'm going to have to do it again because if I don't, I could end up hurting one of you guys or some innocent bystander." He exhaled through his mouth. "And those two sisters you're so impressed with? See, here's the thing. I only pick the ones who don't give a shit who they're with, because otherwise it's not fair. Those two bar chippies checked out my watch and my roll and figured I was a pimp trophy. The fucking was about as intimate as a car accident. And tonight? You're going home to Wellsie. I'm going home alone. Just like I did yesterday. Just like I'm going to do the day after. The whoring isn't fun for me, and it's been killing me for years, so please give it a rest, dig?"

    That was why I hated it because I didn't see it as him cheating on Mary. I saw him as a dumbass for not explaining the beast to her, for not taking a chance sooner if she so decided to try. But not for the fucking around.

    Anne also said
    If people who have read the book are thinking he's cheating, then there was something implied that they were a couple, i.e., in a relationship, and had scommitment committment going on. So.... implied or outright stated, cheating is cheating... and should NOT touch the pages of a romance book, no matter what the circumstances are. Absolutely NEVER..
    implied... that seems way subjective a reader could think way off the wall things and romance readers can see green in things that are black

    Should they be able to decide what is fact because they decide that is what they read? Hell look at Taming of the Duke by Eloisa James or Lord Ruin by Caroline Jewel, two books that people see different things in (one being that the hero cheats where the other side of the fence says he doesn't)

    I don't see it that way. To me, writing is subjective. The author has an idea. His/her view point would be the closest to the 'correct'. Now if he/she does her job well, the readers should walk away with the same idea. But even if the writer is perfect and clear, if a reader decides black is really white, black is still black.

    It is made pretty clear Rhage and Mary decide not to have a sexual relationship, of course in a romanceland yes they will fuck at some point way. So even if two adults make the choice to not have sex and not date but are the h/h of a romance novel [so will end up HEA] does that make a commitment and make fucking around an act of infidelity?

    I know tara likes a really bad bad boy and doesn't mind the cheating (I think it was tara) anyone else? Hit me with some rec's. I can't say I will read them but I would like to check a few out.
    15 Comments:
    1. I can accept it under some circumstances. I haven't read Lover Eternal yet, but I'm thinking of one of my favourite books :) that might qualify. Derek "cheats" on Sara. They aren't a couple at the time but it's obvious that Derek has a real serious thing for her. Now according to some readers expectations, this one would put it out of their reading range, but I don't have a problem with that scene at all. I even quoted it recently *grin*. So I don't think you can broadly say "if a book has the hero cheating I won't read it" It goes book by book and depends on the circumstances going on.

      By Blogger Kristie (J), at 4/11/2006 05:09:00 AM  

    2. Okay, it's not that I don't have a problem with cheating, it depends on when it happens. Kristie's description of when it happens in DOY is a good example. My line falls in with the hero/heroine being in "love". If the plot is an arranged marriage, I wont like that he cheats, but he's not truly committed yet. It needs to fit in the story line.

      If the cheating comes after the falling in love, making a commitment, it becomes a wallbanger.

      By Blogger Tara Marie, at 4/11/2006 07:09:00 AM  

    3. You know I really wouldn't even count Derek as cheating... I mean he sent her away, she left to marry another man.

      So really, is that cheating?

      By Blogger sybil, at 4/11/2006 07:40:00 AM  

    4. Actually, when I read the LK's Prince of Dreams, I was pretty shocked to see that Prince Nicholas cheated on whatsherface (I've noticed that I never remember heroine's names) during their marriage. That brought me out of the book totally, and left me annoyed for quite a while.

      Funnily enough, this is a subject that I broached with Brenda Novak.

      By Blogger Karen Scott, at 4/11/2006 09:56:00 AM  

    5. Cheating is a deal breaker. I can take forced seduction, I can even handle a really poorly written misunderstanding, but cheating? Nope...nuh-huh...not even a little.

      But this is a big arena for personal preference. The author really has to know her audience.

      ...Fiona...

      By Blogger Kerri Wall, at 4/11/2006 11:48:00 AM  

    6. karen: I don't think I have read LK's Prince of Dreams. Would have annoyed me too.

      Fiona: So how do you think of cheating? After they are 'together' or at any time during the book even if they aren't a couple yet. Or is it marriage? Living together? So far the examples of LE and DoY really aren't cheating in my mind. Karen's lk book would be, The Duchess's Next Husband and The Marriage Bed are... BUT I don't think they have to be married to 'cheat' I just can't think of a book that has done it ;).

      By Blogger sybil, at 4/11/2006 03:40:00 PM  

    7. Well, as for my example, way back when I still visited the Avon board, this came up and some readers *snicker* chose not to believe that Derek actually did the deed with the hired help. When I read that I thought to myself ooookkkkaaayyy - who am I to burst your little "isn't life beautiful" fantasy bubble. Still others thought he did, but were upset that he did.
      As for Prince of Dreams, it's been years since I read that book and I don't remember much about it - only it wasn't one of my favourites.

      By Blogger Kristie (J), at 4/11/2006 05:48:00 PM  

    8. How can anyone read he didn't have sex with her? I mean that is pretty clear when she is talking to Sara.

      Dancing with Clara is another one where the hero cheats.

      By Blogger sybil, at 4/11/2006 06:08:00 PM  

    9. Sybil,

      I don't think its cheating until they are betrothed/married. But I don't want to "see it" once they have met mentally.

      I can read between the lines when he goes out of town or walks down the steps of his mistress's townhouse, but I don't want a scene like the one (can't think of the title) where the other girl is telling Sara what Derek did with her the night before. Yuck. Now, when they are together, all I can think about is how he was with another woman. I feel like I have been the one cheated on.

      Shoot them, kidnap them, lie and steal, but please, don't make the characters cheat!

      Perhaps this is my one fatal flaw when it comes to the genre.

      ...Fi

      By Blogger Kerri Wall, at 4/11/2006 08:40:00 PM  

    10. I had a hard time with PRINCE OF DREAMS, too. For soooo many reasons in addition to the cheating scene. I'd have kicked his ass seriously to the curb.

      THE MARRIAGE BED also struck a chord with me. I kept wondering why Viola didn't take a lover over those 8 years.

      Which led me to write THE STRANGER I MARRIED, a book I wrote under deadline with the knowledge that it might too much and piss off my editor. Thankfully, she loved it as much as I do, but I anticipate it will be a hot button book for some readers.

      By Blogger Sylvia Day, at 4/11/2006 08:54:00 PM  

    11. Fiona: You do realize you're dissin' one of my favourite books now don't you *if I could do the one eyebrow rise thing - it would be now*. The title would be *cough* Dreaming of You, a little book that some might say I have been *encouraging* some to read recently. (and they are all probably grinning now) I took that scene an entirely different way. See, in Derek's mind he wasn't cheating - he was substituting. He wanted Sara desperatly and thinks he's already lost her - that she went home and married Perry (mama's boy) And the thing is that Sara *gets* that he's doing it. When Tabitha starts with the story, Sara is upset (even though at the time she is engaged to someone else) but by the time Tabitha is finished the story, Sara understands. And she and Tabitha get along great guns for the rest of the book. I think it's a very powerful scene and shows a glimpse into Derek that we hadn't seen up 'til then. He really comes across as vulnerable - and isn't that one thing many of us love in a romance? A hero who is strong yet so vulnerable to the hero?

      By Blogger Kristie (J), at 4/11/2006 09:13:00 PM  

    12. um heroine. That would be vulnerable to the HEROINE

      By Blogger Kristie (J), at 4/11/2006 09:16:00 PM  

    13. THE STRANGER I MARRIED aka the book I still haven't seen. ::checks inbox::

      nope... I bes abused damnd it ABUSED.

      LOL kristie... you know since I still have x-files on the brain, there use to be a website: SPCDD - Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to David Duchovny (no I wasn't a member...)

      You could start one for the protection of DoY ;).

      bbbbbwwwwaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh
      ::wipes tear::
      Derek so shouldn't have fucked the slut, sez I. But I forgive him. Since you asked ;)

      By Blogger sybil, at 4/11/2006 10:42:00 PM  

    14. THere are some lines that are very difficult for authors to cross--cheating is definitely one of them (Romance readers want their heros to be heroic after all) but one of my favorite writing *quotes* is IAITE (it's all in the execution).......

      By Blogger Amie Stuart, at 4/13/2006 09:40:00 AM  

    15. ROFL Sybil.

      By Blogger Kerri Wall, at 4/14/2006 12:45:00 PM  

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