The name is Sue, Mary Sue..
 Checking in at the very interesting post that spawned my OPP post, (you should also go check out Fiona's thread on cheating as well - that I can't find...Fiona?)Lauren Dane posted an interesting thought regarding Mary in Lover Eternal Click the saint... warning use of the word fanfic to follow... Lauren Dane said: And Mary is a mary sue! I didn't see that at all when I read LE. So it made me stop and think about what I think the term Mary Sue means. When I think of it, I think of fanfic. It is the wonderful, perfect, every man wants to fuck, everyone woman wants to be her best friend character named Emerald. Mulder fucks her but she knows he really loves Scully so she unselfishly gives him up (after fucking him) and makes Scully see why she should forgive him for fucking Emerald. And she does because omg Emerald - or as she calls her Em because they are now bestest friends, is prefect and everything Scully ever wanted to be.  OK here is where we learn sybil use to read a LOT of fanfic. A lot, a lot, a lot.... I could title every post with a quote from X-Files and run out of things to post before I run out of quotes. Yes see my OCD in action. Anywho... Mary or Marty Sue is a common complaint in fanfic circles and has changed over the years from when it first came into play with Star Trek Fic. So I googled and searched about for something that would explain Mary Sue in terms of romance novels to see if I agreed that Mary was well Mary Sue. closest I came up with was: Who is Mary Sue? Does sound about right? Is that what you think when you hear Mary Sue? Or have you never heard of the term before? A large part of what I think of when I hear the term is: For some, it is any self-insertion of the writer; for others it is when the character is obviously acting as wish-fulfillment for the writer. a la LKH and her band of merry men...  So thinking of Mary and what little I know of JR Ward. I don't see it. If I go with the perfect character that everyone wants and everyone else wants to be like, I don't see it either. Mary is a flawed character not perfect. So then I thought well maybe it is the overly tragic idea that made Dane decide Mary was a Mary Sue. But I am not sure I see that either. LOL maybe she will come tell us. So those of you who have read LE, what do you think? Is Mary a Mary Sue?  Other than Anita Blake, can you think of any other character you see as a Mary Sue? Or can you really have a one in original publishing **xfiles, dd and ga pics posted cuz I can** |
posted by sybil
at
9:24:00 PM
I do think of some MSs as author insertions, clearly the author (usually a 14-year-old kid) as the heroine you describe.
But I also think of it more and more not as a reflection of the author, but an ultimate wish-fulfilling character in cultural terms, not individual terms.
She's kind, she's smart and everyone loves her, she solves all the problems with her gentle kindness (or conversely, her ultimate kick-assness and because the gods love her above all others and so provide a deus ex machina) and her ultra-super powers (in a paranormal).
I suppose a lot of romance heroines would be Mary Sues by that definition, though, so it doesn't work as well in original fiction. The heroine who is so kind and perfect and tames the rake? I dunno, I don't think that's a MS, necessarily. It depends on how it's handled -- in those cases, I might think a secondary character is more a MS (the one who makes the hero/heroine see the light, and realize their lurve for the other character). Especially if said character dies at the end.
I can't comment on LE, as I haven't read it -- but I'm more forgiving of some MSs than others, I guess. Anne Bishop? Forgiven. Wesley Crusher? I liked him when I was a kid, so forgiven. Superman? Forgiven. (And I guess it makes a difference that these aren't fan-generated MSs, but original characters. Fan-generated MSs, I'd rather poke my eyes out than read).
By
meljean brook, at 4/12/2006 01:51:00 AM
Okay, and that all said? I do think the term Mary Sue is thrown about too loosely, especially as it applies to original fiction.
Fanfiction, it's easy to spot -- it's the OOC character who takes up more space than they should.
But in original fiction, it does make an assumption about a) the author, and b) limits some of the scope allowed a female character (and aren't we more harsh on female characters, anyway?)
Everyone likes a female character? Mary Sue. Everyone wants to do a female character? Mary Sue. A female character has a lot of power? Mary Sue. Few flaws, and those she has are of the "I suffered for this" physical variety? Mary Sue. A female character gets the baddest of the bad boys? Mary Sue.
I would say yes if ALL of the above apply, or even three...but I see it bandied about just for one or two of these reasons. More disturbingly, it's the powerful, confident female characters who get it the most -- why? It's become a catch-all phrase for strong women (especially if they are part of a series). Wasn't Eve (in Death) *that* close to being called a Mary Sue during the author-photo flareup on the boards a while ago?
So, I dunno, maybe it's a term that should stay in fanfic, and original characters blasted on an individual basis and according to the rules set by the individual book...not a catch-all that is slowly losing its original meaning.
(sorry, that was long. i obviously think about this wayyyyy too much)
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meljean brook, at 4/12/2006 02:07:00 AM
Sorry Sybil...the computer ferrets were going to town last night. I pulled the post to add an edit and then couldn't get it back up. Now it is stuck at home. I won't get the post back up until this afternoon.
...Fiona...
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Kerri Wall, at 4/12/2006 06:46:00 AM
I agree with Meljean that the “Mary Sue” term is used entirely too often in original fiction. I don’t think this character is seen nearly as frequently as some may think.
As a teacher, I see the ADHD term being thrown around much like the Mary Sue label in literature. Teachers will claim for years that this kid and that kid is ADHD, but it is not until they truly have the crawling on the floor, skin-covered-with-ants nervousness that defines these students that they actually know they have one.
Many people might use the term Mary Sue all too often, but once you actually meet a Mary Sue character in fiction, you know, without any doubt.
So what makes a Mary Sue? I agree with Meljean, but I would like to add several things. A Mary Sue is a character that everyone likes, everyone wants to ‘do’, she has a lot of power and few flaws. But I see her as a secondary character whose main claim to fame would be her suffering. She leads the pack in putting the lovers together, with no thought to her own feelings and desires. Other’s happiness is put before her own. THAT is what characterizes a Mary Sue, the perfect character and their perfect sacrifice. And yes, I believe that they are the shadow of the author within the writing.
So, while Mary Sue did get her roots in fanfiction, I think that it is evolving into original fiction and could soon be a term that we not only more clearly define, but begin to use as a basis for readability.
…Fiona…
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Kerri Wall, at 4/12/2006 07:54:00 AM
hi lauren! Thanks for answering. I am home to change and off to lil sis's volleyball game.
They are in the championship don't cha know ;) (6th grade ones LOL).
You have some great points here but too much for me to get into right now.
One thing... the refusing protection thing. I took it as she wasn't afraid of death because we was the walking dead. The scene outside by the pool when bella finds her, I viewed as her hitting bottom.
And if the lessors got her, well it would be quicker than cancer and not 'sucide' if that makes sense. I saw her running out the door after Rhage as her deciding fuck it - she would take the time she had and live it vs just waiting to die.
anywho... I see where you are coming from. And shall ramble on more later!
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sybil, at 4/12/2006 05:32:00 PM
I might be one of those readers who tosses out the "Mary Sue" label to often.
To me, a Mary Sue is a character with no flaws. She's so dang perfect, she's a Stepford wife.
I recently read a book that featured a heroine who never swore (even non-swearers have been known to slip!), never stood up for herself when anyone said anything bad about her (a slimey ex and a critical mother), and the clincher - she baked cookies for the jock hero after he had a "bad day." She was sweet, innocent and perfect all the damn time. Gag me with a spoon.
But to me the worse thing about Mary Sue is that the hero falls for her. OK, I'm probably overanalyzing this too much - but for me, when a hero falls for MS it's like the author is (in a backhanded way) reinforcing the idea that women should be good and sweet and pure and never utter a negative word should they ever hope of landing a man.
Man always right, Woman always sweet, supportive and subserviant.
But that's just me pyschoanalyzing fiction again. Still, the feminist in me just cringes....
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Wendy, at 4/12/2006 06:46:00 PM
I remember this thought crossing my mind when I read Lover Eternal and the answer is still no, I think. Mary isn't perfect. The character said and did some stupid things, and she was fallible. Now, Beth of Dark Lover on the other hand.. I really felt like she skated pretty close to the edge of Mary Sue many, many times in that book. And there was even a line after the bond-mate ceremony that says Beth wondered why her name wasn't Mary. Or Sue. I totally snickered out loud at that.
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Anonymous, at 4/14/2006 06:17:00 PM
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